That's definitely good stuff :) I'm just dissapointed about not having other sizes and tech 2 variants.

Also, POS guns should not be able to target it even in manual mode... If you want to remove a siphon, you have to dirty your hands yourself !

Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.

So one possible adjustment, if siphons prove to be Too Powerful, would be to make ships dropping or harvesting siphons Sit Perfectly Still for Long Enough?

By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed.

I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic.

Lies.

Goon alt, goon tears.

Why? Are you scared the POS owners might make you defend your completely AFK ISK siphon?

A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons.

so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential?
.

The way I look at it, the entire framework that causes null alliances and coalitions to form is broken, and is unlikely to be fixed by any single bandaid. Most things that take a stab at it will hurt small lowsec corps more, and addressing that problem is a much bigger question than a little feature like this one. However, I think a feature along these lines could add overall interest to the entire POS mining equilibrium without needing to poke lowsec punitively in the eye. In particular if the investment into the siphon is tuned at the right level (which might include a fuel cost rather than an increase in the ticket price of its materials), it will make the value equation of hitting lower value moons shakier and drive attention towards the higher value moons which are routinely held by the larger alliances. For it to work, there needs to be enough room in the financial value of the moon mining stream to motivate individuals (or corps) to risk X to try and siphon Y from it so with the right numbers it could be deliberately tuned to be undesirable in lowsec.

As for the simple fact of someone stealing from a POS being enough to drive the owner online, yes I agree it will. But they will resent it because it is a lose/lose scenario for them where the most positive outcome is for nobody to ever drop a siphon on them in the first place - something the POS owner can't even realistically control. When a major stakeholder's ideal situation is for other people to simply not choose to use a new feature, that seems like a fundamentally poor addition to the game. The justification of needing to break an unhealthy status quo isnGÇÖt sufficient excuse for such a design choice imo.

Change the spin of the feature a bit so that there is potentially something in it for the stakeholder (the POS owner) that can be positive, something that gives them a sense of agency and involvement, and that substantially changes the value of the feature.

Obviously there still needs to be enough incentive of potential profit for people to be motivated to drop siphons, but I think there's enough value in moon mining streams to make that work.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lessons learned

GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring

GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring

GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it

GùªSee: everything involving starbases

I think maybe i don't know enough about POS and Moon mining operations, and although i have been looking to see this mention in the thread, i have not noticed it.

But would the POS Guns not blow up the ship trying to deploy the syphon before the pilot gets to deploy it?

Thumbs up for once CCP. Looking forward to the progression of the moon siphoning..

1. There's always room for more economic warfare opportunities for the small gangs.. Get over it.
2. Nobody expects you to 'hang' around for days.. So it goes.. You lose some of your passive income. Find another revenue stream if you don't like it.
3. Don't pretend you're the Encyclopedia of nullsec.. The moon syphoning is another game mechanic you will need to accept and deal with instead of bitching about it.
4. your drag bubble analogy isn't accurate either. I shouldn't have to explain it for you further.

2. Passive income.... until one manages a moon or a reaction farm, one is not permitted to state if moon income is passive or not.

Great enjoy emptying them every 25 hours, unless someone else empties it first. Passive fun and games.

But the poses are afkkkkkkk and passiveeeeee

other than "picking up materials that accumulated while sleeping" and "putting in more fuel", there really isn't much else for you to do.

- There needs to be more randomness then just "first place, first stealer". If there are 10 siphon units around a POS, they should be processed in a random ordering each hour.

- There should be some sort of selector that lets you pick whether to focus on processed or raw materials to siphon off.

- Waste should be a random amount that hovers around 20% for a small unit in a bell-curve distribution. So you might lose 30% on one cycle at worst, or only 10% at best, but it will average out to 20% over the long run.

FTFY.

The last 30 pages have mostly been a CFC whine and cheese reception. Page by page, every page.

Geee, I wonder why the entity that holds most of the valuable moons would be opposed to a nerf leveled squarely at moon holders.

TBH, it reminds me of all the PL and Raiden tears on the forums after the Super nerf. Man, the nerf bat's a bich, aint it?

To ANYONE upset about these siphon units

Medium and Heavy units are next

They will target advanced components from complex reactions as well as fullerines

You might as well save some tears for that...

It takes 24 hours to fill a siphon up, if you put 10, you don't have to come back every day and empty, they should fill in sucession

Yeah, bull. Page 63 -> 9 CFC posts, Page 62 -> 7 CFC posts, Page 61 -> 8 CFC posts, Page 60 -> 7 CFC posts.
And on and on it continues. If you can't see it, then you should get your eyes checked.

40% of all the posts in this thread are made by members of the CFC, and the vast majority of the "negative feedback" is coming from CFC members. The CFC have most of the moons worth siphoning, so they absolutely will be targeted, as there's (almost) no one else to siphon.

If siphons should require the person anchoring them to be online, so should all moon harvesters, refineries, research labs labs, CSAA's, and anything else you can anchor on a pos. That idea is bad and you should feel bad.

IT'S SPELLED "SIPHON" YOU BLITHERING IDIOT

CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.

These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next?

If moonming is so damned unprofitable after the patch, why not pull down the POS and deal with it?

Or raise the prices, like thats never been tried/done before.

Just sayin'..

I love seeing new features that hurt goons

Good Afternoon all,

I tested syphon unit this morning and that seems very good, but I'd like to know if this case is normal, then I tried to steal a simple reactor product in a large pos which had a moon harvester OFFLINE and a coupling arry link with OFFLINE too, and surprise my syphon stole the moon harvest product even it was offline.

I think that will be a futur exploit, Harvest a moon without moon harvester online.

Exert from dev blog;
The stealing happens on the production cycles (once per hour). What is stolen comes from the production, thus items in storage are never stolen directly.
A siphon unit can only steal from the end of a chain. For example, if a POS has a two Moon Harvester Arrays that are both connected (through a Coupling Array/Silo) to an active Simple Reactor Array, then only the output from the Simple Reactor Array can be stolen. A siphon unit steals from a single chain each production cycle, so it cannot for instance steal both raw material and processed material at the same time.

Hmmm. Go around hauling thousands of m3 for a little ISK when I finally ship it to Jita to sell, shoot a siphon and get a bounty for each one that I destroy API verified, or shoot red crosses and get ISK every twenty min? Gee, I'm stummped on this one guys, help me out here.

I still want to hear you use the word "skill" in relation to this siphon deployable. EVE is, after all, a game featuring character sheets with character skillz on them. Skillz mean that characters are different from each other, in terms of what they can do, and how well they can do what they can do.

But not here. In this particularly case, siphoning, everyone is uniquely alike in that they are all equally good at doing it. Everywhere else, in EVE, there's a skill to differentiate and individualize characters, but for some reason not here.

What is that reason?

So what you're saying is that no one actually knows how these changes will play out, and we should maybe see how they work on the live server before making unnecessary changes to siphons?

I can live with that.

I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion.

The blue donut is pretty deep and can be annoying to get to the corners of...

However, CCP has given you the new gate jumping animation, which you will get to watch many times over !

Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced.

Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you.

Sweet this sounds nice :) got 8 covert ops alts, busy times ahead

Yeah basically this. There's really no reason that large alliances should be able to hold the most valuable moons 3-4-5 or more regions away with only the threat of overwhelming retaliation keeping them from being screwed with.

The stats of the griefing mechanic just need to be a little bit better than what's been presented here.

You could be smaller and smarter but in reality the smarter people are either also quite big or are content with their status in game. They certainly aren't whining about how it isn't fair they're small.

you sure your numbers are correct? mine are not showing any incorrect deviations for my pos's.

could the change in daylight savings time have any affect on your formulas? (assuming your using time in any of your formulas) What are the actual quantities being reported in your api pull?

I'm going to have to go with either you or eve reactor screwed up and not ccp. First off ccp api doesn't do units/hour it just lists quantities, location, itemid, etc and second mine showed correct data for all my silos.

Your post is so full of fail that it's a wonder how you are capable of managing a pos to begin with.


3. learn...anything...about computers and program code and you'd know that adding a random element to something like the api is not only stupid but pointless.

CCP Tuxford
Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

I think very few 1 man corps have 5 towers. And Goons will certainly not have 10000 people checking towers. What you are trying to do is fudge the reality with bogus math.

The reality is that the small corps will behave like the small shopkeeper. He works hard, keeps things spic and span because he relies solely on his one shop. Goons will behave like Wallmart employees.

The reality is the small guy has POS guns, checks his POS and will be fine. Goons, well let's say I spent a lot of time bookmarking GEWN towers over the last few weeks and they're spread right across CFC space, a lot are just large towers with no defensive weaponry at all full of silos and moon harvesting arrays. Ripe for the siphoning.

May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...

For baiting and popping those trial account alts?

Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:

How it currently works:
1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely.
So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing.
Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough.
With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS.
Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?

POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?

As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.

In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m-¦ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.

My Suggestion:

1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly)
2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm.
3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS
4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day


o7
Bellathor

PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works:
Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo

So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?

Huritt Otaktay
Of coarse, being able to scoop them back up or make them dirt cheap to manufacture, would make it just fine.